The Sinclair QL Forum

stephen_usher wrote: (The UK is the only country to do this.)

Apparently not, it is the result of an EU rule we inherited. EU makes any non EU country business do this now as well!

Pr0f wrote:

XorA wrote:Well the good thing is customs is so busy f**king around with EU packages stuff from china is arriving unmolested in a few days

And quickly too - also kit from the US doesn't always fall into their grubby hands

I've been waiting for a parcel from the US since November 24th. Tracking data shows it still stuck in a handling facility in Atlanta. I queried with the supplier - small parcels are typically taking 3 months to be received in the UK, although he blames USPS and Covid rather than anything to do with Brexit as long as it goes direct to UK, not via a European airport.

Trump and his crony seriously f*cked up the USPS so that he could commit election fraud and prevent "undesirables" voting!

I suspect that is at least part of the reason for the delay.


Cheers,
Norm.

XorA wrote:

stephen_usher wrote: (The UK is the only country to do this.)

Apparently not, it is the result of an EU rule we inherited. EU makes any non EU country business do this now as well!

Why is it that companies in the US and other places are now stopping exports to the UK then when they are still exporting to the EU and had no issues exporting to the UK before the end of the transition period? This has been highlighted by companies around the World.

dilwyn wrote:

Pr0f wrote:

XorA wrote:Well the good thing is customs is so busy f**king around with EU packages stuff from china is arriving unmolested in a few days

And quickly too - also kit from the US doesn't always fall into their grubby hands

I've been waiting for a parcel from the US since November 24th. Tracking data shows it still stuck in a handling facility in Atlanta. I queried with the supplier - small parcels are typically taking 3 months to be received in the UK, although he blames USPS and Covid rather than anything to do with Brexit as long as it goes direct to UK, not via a European airport.

Update: finally arrived today. The seller's told me he won't supply to UK any more, as he put it, "until they sort themselves out". He said it's a bit pointless sending to the UK when it's taking two to three months as the customer enquiries and complaints cost him more to handle than the value of the goods. Thanks again Boris. The seller also described using USPS as "a bit wild west at the moment".

So in my humble opinion, my summary is this:

As one of the members (at the time) of the E.U., the U.K. pushed for the policies and legislation that are now causing us pain, as the U.K. has now left the E.U. and the EU is quite rightly treating the U.K. like any other country outside the E.U., because that’s what we as a country (well, England and Wales) wanted.

The VAT thing was always going to happen. While in the E.U., we had cooperative rules and regulations so that VAT was charged once and only once anywhere within the E.U. With the relevant tax authorities cooperating with each other. So if you buy an item in the E.U. from one country, the buyer in another E.U. country will not have any extra VAT to pay. Now that the U.K. is not in the E.U., the U.K. tax authorities will treat all imports from the E.U. the same as imports from the rest of the world. Well, apart from China where I think they let a lot of stuff through due to being overloaded. I knew about the VAT rules because I’d had to pay VAT and handling charges on items from Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere before.

And as pointed out above, one advantage of the E.U. is in most cases, there is a single standard that applies across all countries in the E.U. Before this, each country had its own set of standards.

So if a U.K. company wants to export its products to the EU, it is supposed to comply with all relevant E.U. standards. As the U.K. market is not really that big, I don’t see many companies producing products that are only intended for the U.K. market...

Oh and since when have right wing politicians let reality and practically get in the way of their principles?

Just an aside, does anyone think that it’s ironic that a right wing conservative government that normally has MPs yelling about there being too much ‘red tape’ and excessive bureaucracy, actually has a primary policy that brings in the largest amount of it for many, many years?

So yes, the populations of England and Wales have royally screwed us (the country of the U.K.) over in favour of keeping johnny foreigner out (even though we are ALL immigrants) and to “take back control” (and promptly hand it over to a right wing conservative government that has a clown in charge) and regain our sovereignty (without anyone being able to say which bit we had apparently lost).

I’m sorry and apologise to all the good people in the E.U. who were happy to sell things to us in the past, but who now have a nightmare to deal with as a result of the U.K. leaving the E.U.

For myself, I voted remain. If people feel the need to change the rules and regulations of the E.U., you have to be in it to have your voice heard. As as someone pointed out above, in a democratic system, there will be lots of different ideas that have to be considered. So you don’t always get what you want.

Last year (in fact, as soon as it became clear that the U.K. was on a one way course for chaos), I started working out what items I wanted to buy that were being sold from within the E.U. And then made sure that I ordered these long before Autumn last year. Because I foresaw that there would be problems as well as the VAT thing.

So yes, I HATE brexit. But while we have a clown in charge and a right wing conservative government, there is not a lot I myself can do about it

Mark

PS unfortunately in this so called information technology era, fake news and echo chamber systems that feed back based on your preferences could be doing more harm than dictatorships...

dilwyn wrote:Update: finally arrived today. The seller's told me he won't supply to UK any more, as he put it, "until they sort themselves out". He said it's a bit pointless sending to the UK when it's taking two to three months as the customer enquiries and complaints cost him more to handle than the value of the goods. Thanks again Boris. The seller also described using USPS as "a bit wild west at the moment".

Unfortunately I fear a lot of businesses will stop selling to the U.K. for the same or similar reasons. So with more red tape and less competition, expect prices to rise within the U.K. on items that come from the E.U. or which are distributed from within the E.U.

I’m glad your item has arrived.

I’m still waiting for something that was sent to me from just across the North Sea at the beginning of last year. The last known tracking location was U.K, customs. No sign of it since

Mark

1024MAK wrote:

dilwyn wrote:Update: finally arrived today. The seller's told me he won't supply to UK any more, as he put it, "until they sort themselves out". He said it's a bit pointless sending to the UK when it's taking two to three months as the customer enquiries and complaints cost him more to handle than the value of the goods. Thanks again Boris. The seller also described using USPS as "a bit wild west at the moment".

Unfortunately I fear a lot of businesses will stop selling to the U.K. for the same or similar reasons. So with more red tape and less competition, expect prices to rise within the U.K. on items that come from the E.U. or which are distributed from within the E.U.
I’m glad your item has arrived.
I’m still waiting for something that was sent to me from just across the North Sea at the beginning of last year. The last known tracking location was U.K, customs. No sign of it since
Mark

Thanks Mark, that's the US parcel arrived, now to wait and see whether the one from the EU takes as long or longer.

I worry about the effect this will have in terms of inflation etc, as you really do pay 50% more (not just 20% VAT) between customs duties and handling charges for certain values of items. I was used to this from buying outside the EU. So little consumer goods are made in the UK that you really have no choice but to import them, or you fall foul of a company using a .co.uk site like I did only to later realise they import them individually (the item I ordered only became available in December so ordering earlier wasn't an option). If this pushes inflation up, interest rates will follow and all the borrowing we've already made during the pandemic will become a national debt burden for ever and a day.

I’ve just come across this news story about retailers that may burn unwanted goods because it’s cheaper than sending them back!

Mark

stephen_usher wrote:Another issue has been our Inland Revenue's new rules for companies selling to UK individuals. They have required those companies to register with the UK Inland Revenue (for a fee), collect VAT and customs duties for the UK and then at the end of the year send documentation for each transaction and the money (for a fee). This makes it totally uneconomic for any small business around the World to sell into the UK. (The UK is the only country to do this.)

OK, time now the dust has settled to point out the real issues here.

This only applies to orders costing £135 or less. As I run my own marketplace, the legislation states that I have to collect the VAT on all items sold to the UK through sellmyretro.com so that would at least make it easier for sellers on there - they do not need to register for UK VAT if they do not sell directly.

Of course, this gives small overseas businesses 3 options:

a) Stop selling to the UK
b) Only sell to the UK via a marketplace
c) Register for UK VAT and collect the VAT.
d) Send the item anyway and if HMRC pick it up - take the risk it will be destroyed at the port or returned at their own cost.

For now I have stopped all sales through sellmyretro.com to the UK because the rules and regulations / expectations are simply not clear. Even if you look at ebay there are items being sold by overseas sellers which have VAT added to the price and similar items which do not.

So what are the real issues here for sellmyretro?

a) Lack of double taxation treaties between the UK and the EU. One VAT registered seller in Poland has been told by the Polish tax authorities that he still has to charge Polish VAT on sales to the UK !

b) Lack of clarity over types of transaction. One HMRC page talks about "sellers" making sales to consumers in the UK. Another page talks about "businesses" making sales to consumers in the UK and specifically states that the rules do not apply to sales by private individuals who are not trading as a business. What is a business? That depends....

c) Lack of clarity over how to identify on packages what type of transaction is involved and whether VAT has been collected by a business or by a marketplace.
* C2C (Private individual to private individual is exempt even through a marketplace. Gifts up to £39 are exempt from VAT. Anything else is subject to VAT and customs duties at the port - collected by the courier / postal service from the buyer.
* B2B (Business to Business) is exempt in that goods are supposed to be supplied using reverse VAT rules. However, the definition of a business is specifically limited - both businesses have to be VAT registered. This is different for normal reverse VAT rules which apply to supply of services, where you can sell to a non-VAT registered business - they add the value to their turnover to determine if they need to register for VAT !!
* B2C (Business to Consumer) is caught by the regulations. Here a business is defined as someone transacting in the normal course of a business. They do not have to be VAT registered if it is clear by the nature, value and number of transactions that the person is carrying on a business. However, we also have to bear in mind that HMRC just last year told a lot of micro business to de-register from VATMOSS because they were not a business, but a hobby as their turnover and number of sales was so low.

d) The costs involved. I have decided that what I need to do is to add 11% to the rate of VAT to get the price for an item sold to the UK as a B2C transaction.
So, a £100 item being sold by someone in Germany (who is not VAT registered) becomes £131. Of that, £21.83 is VAT. I have to pay a PayPal fee of around £4.60 leaving me £104.57 to pay £100 to the original seller (as a B2B transaction) and cover the costs of implementing the changes to the website, my admin of creating invoices etc and handling any possible refunds to the buyer (bearing in mind I would not get back the £4.60 paypal fee!).

It is hardly worth my effort to be honest but how should I do this cost effectively, especially as most orders are a lot less than £100 items but involve the same time. Maybe I should just apply an £8 handling fee, the same as Royal Mail - but that seems over the top for items which might only sell for £5.

Until some guidance is issued as to how to show the different scenarios clearly on packets (I understand the European posal union is currently working on a new customs form to help with this); I do not see how this is ever going to work.

The worst thing is that the EU are bringing in the same legislation for ALL cross-border sales both within the EU and from outside the EU - but slightly more complex in that if the business is based in the EU they get the benefit of a €10,000 threshold of cross-border sales before they have to collect VAT based on the location of the buyer.
Hopefully, the EU will see what a mess the UK legislation has caused and have a rethink.

Australia brought in similar rules a couple of years ago - but they have a threshold for ALL businesses (and marketplaces) of $75,000 AUD of annual sales to Australia.