I would donate - Porting SymbOS

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bwinkel67
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Re: I would donate - Porting SymbOS

Post by bwinkel67 »

Peter wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 1:49 pm The only point I can see at all, would be the vague hope of running a GUI with just 128 KB RAM.
Taking into account that 32 KB of 128 KB are screen memory, and 68K code is larger than Z80 code, I doubt the usefulness.
Last but not least, SymbOS has several restrictions compared to Minerva.
That was a bit of the genius of ICE running in 16K of ROM, though obviously limited.

So, after 32K screen, you have at most 96K left...but it's less than that since I assume you take some for the system, right? How much memory is actually free on an unexpanded QL? I ask because ICE will show 77K left with nothing running, but I don't think it takes up that remaining 18-19K.


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vox
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Re: I would donate - Porting SymbOS

Post by vox »

bwinkel67 wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2024 3:11 am
Peter wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 1:49 pm The only point I can see at all, would be the vague hope of running a GUI with just 128 KB RAM.
Taking into account that 32 KB of 128 KB are screen memory, and 68K code is larger than Z80 code, I doubt the usefulness.
Last but not least, SymbOS has several restrictions compared to Minerva.
That was a bit of the genius of ICE running in 16K of ROM, though obviously limited.

So, after 32K screen, you have at most 96K left...but it's less than that since I assume you take some for the system, right? How much memory is actually free on an unexpanded QL? I ask because ICE will show 77K left with nothing running, but I don't think it takes up that remaining 18-19K.
Very little to end user after loading e.g. Quill and this was a mistake.
It should have extra 32K VRAM or similar, and more then 128K. There was no m68k
Computer ever with so little. Also RAM expansion eats only exp slot (ok there are newer solutions).
I beg you to read SymbOS apps list - its way more then I get with ICE and I would love to see this is ROM.
Also limiting ROM slot is bad, as C64 and Amiga proven ROM can do some nice magic, like Action Replay etc. :D


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Derek_Stewart
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Re: I would donate - Porting SymbOS

Post by Derek_Stewart »

Hi

ICE is just a programme launcher and file manager it needs extra software to allow a certain degree of multitasking.

There is ChoICE, which is a Supercharged compiled programme to all memory management on a limited scale.

There no extended channel usage in ICE, which allows windows to be displayed in the screen like in the Pointer environment or with QPAC2 giving the Extended Environment.

I have been disassembling ICE which a view to integration into the Pointer Environment, due not many Mouse options for the QL. But that was prior to QIMSI Gold.

However, it seems there are some nice ICE applications that could be updated once disassemble or decompiling is achieved. But this is a lot of work. But less work than port SymbOS.

SymbOS looks to be written in Z80, conversion to M68K would be required, very hard and tedious. It might easier to to write the applications from scratch, rather than porting them.

There also be the need of adding more memory to the QL to allow these application to run. This seems to go against certain people's options on how QL hardware should be configured.


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Derek
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Peter
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Re: I would donate - Porting SymbOS

Post by Peter »

vox wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 7:21 am Very little to end user after loading e.g. Quill and this was a mistake.
So you'd need a RAM expansion even with something as small as ICE.
Hypothetical SymbOS for 68K would be even larger, probably not usable with 96K at all.
vox wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 7:21 am I beg you to read SymbOS apps list - its way more then I get with ICE and I would love to see this is ROM.
I looked, and SymbOS loses clearly against the PE and it's applications.
With RAM expansion (you need it anyway) the PE is the standard QL GUI.

Where would be the point in rewriting SymbOS für the QL, just to get a system which is worse than what we have?


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Re: I would donate - Porting SymbOS

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Peter wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 12:50 pm
Where would be the point in rewriting SymbOS für the QL, just to get a system which is worse than what we have?
OK I ll rephrase, what is more modern GUI then ICE
that can be run on QDOS, Minerva at best, no SMSQ and 640 - 768K RAM
Then you can say its best. I am not familier with PE


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Re: I would donate - Porting SymbOS

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vox wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 5:18 pm OK I ll rephrase, what is more modern GUI then ICE
that can be run on QDOS, Minerva at best, no SMSQ and 640 - 768K RAM
You can run the Pointer environment (PE) on QDOS and Minerva with 512 KB RAM extension.
https://www.dilwyn.theqlforum.com/pe/index.html
A nice program launcher for the PE is Lauchpad:
https://dilwyn.theqlforum.com/gen/launch ... chpad.html
It comes iwth a number of utilities, but of course there are many more sophisticated PE applications.
There are also program dock systems, kind of a "tray" in which programs are parked, etc.


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bwinkel67
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Re: I would donate - Porting SymbOS

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Derek_Stewart wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 12:06 pm ICE is just a programme launcher and file manager it needs extra software to allow a certain degree of multitasking.

There is ChoICE, which is a Supercharged compiled programme to all memory management on a limited scale.

There no extended channel usage in ICE, which allows windows to be displayed in the screen like in the Pointer environment or with QPAC2 giving the Extended Environment.
Yup, ICE is pretty rudimentary. It follows in line with some early GUI's that kind of got out of the way once a program was launched as it doesn't provide windowing and mouse support for the launched program. Then again, it was only version 1 and was done by a third party and only in 16K of ROM, so those are all pretty amazing things. Plus with the amount of icons it provided, a couple of simple desktop apps, and a mouse version that also tied into some software they created, makes it all pretty cool. Imagine if the QL stuck and these folks ended up extending that GUI to support windowing and an API to that windowing, it would have been a nice start IMO.

Note though that it's more than just a program launcher as it also provides a simple file manager which does add some capabilities that the QL otherwise doesn't offer. For instance, and I used to do this incessantly on early Windows, organizing the file system to have things copied in a certain order becomes a breeze in ICE as you can just select the files in the order you want to copy them with a simple mouse click. Without ICE this becomes a bit more tedious. The task manager, CHOICE, also seems to have some ties into ICE because the TSK files it produces are tiny, so ICE itself must support task management internally -- i.e. I don't think TSK files are fully stand-alone programs that do all the work themselves.

But back to my earlier question, how do you determine free memory in QDOS?


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vox
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Re: I would donate - Porting SymbOS

Post by vox »

Oh you made me like ICE1 even more.
If it supports mouse, which mouse should I buy, where, how much?


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Re: I would donate - Porting SymbOS

Post by Derek_Stewart »

way back in time in 1990s, my set up was QL with Trump Card, Miracle Hard Disk, MICE ROM.

I had some ICE Icons for the WIN1 on the Miracle Hard Disk.

Toolkit 2 gave the amount of ram available.

But if you must not use memory expansions, or any other enhancement that shows the QL to it best.

The available ram can be calculated working the free memory from the of the resident programme are to ramtop. So a lityle peeking into whi h system variable gives the correct value, by studying the QDOS Technical Manual.

Or install Toolkit 2 and use the FREE_MEM function.
Last edited by Derek_Stewart on Sun Nov 24, 2024 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.


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bwinkel67
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Re: I would donate - Porting SymbOS

Post by bwinkel67 »

vox wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2024 8:54 pm Oh you made me like ICE1 even more.
If it supports mouse, which mouse should I buy, where, how much?
ICE comes in a mouse version called MICE where the mouse is directly attached to the board. That said, there is a German forum post I once saw where they have created a new ICE board that allowed for other mice to attach but I can't find it presently.


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